Do you sometimes feel a sense of shame and unease when you think about your financial state?
Did you know that it's possible to have the cake and eat it too when it comes to your finances?!!
On this week's episode, I am joined by two of my clients, Grace Lee and Katie Pijanowski who both have unique, inspiring tales of their money-healing journeys.
What a fun episode we have in store for you as we:
You're gonna love this episode!!
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In CFA you will learn how to become an Empowered Money Magician, living so deliciously, saying a big fat “Fuck Yeah” to what lights your Soul on fire!! 🔥
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~Podcast theme song by The Jilted Irony
Hello, hello everyone, welcome back to the Money Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Nadine Zalmott. I am a spiritual money mentor, trauma-informed, holistic money coach and a list of other things, and with me today I've got Katie Pajonowski and Grace Lee, who are my dear friends and also my dear clients, at very different levels, on their money healing journey. So you've got three different people on their. You know we're all on our separate money healing journeys. I always include myself because I always lean into money to deepen my relationship with myself, to deepen my relationship with my business, to get to know myself better, and I hope that everybody gets lots of value from this conversation. I do believe that starting to heal and dissolve our money wounds always begins with honest and open raw money conversations, because what I see always with my clients, including myself, is there is a level of shame that we need to work through. You know, we all believe, we all have this belief that we should be at a different place with money, whether it's how much money we have in savings, how much money we earn, how much money we've paid off and how much assets we have, what our net worth is. We always have this sense of shame of, oh, we should be doing better. But we need to start dissolving this, because where you're at is where you're at, and where you're at is a reflection of your relationship with yourself. It has nothing to do with your self worth, because you're intrinsically worthy. I mean, we know this, we know this. But let's get cracking. Welcome Katie and Grace. Just unmute yourself and introduce yourself and let this be this open, beautiful conversation. Yeah, get started.Speaker 3:
Sure thing, hi, good morning. My name is Grace and I basically look at Nadine as a great friend but a wonderful mentor. As I said before, yeah, I want to be you when I grow up, so just give me five years and I'll get there. So, as a person who's been on my inner child healing journey now for about two years, I actually came across your podcast and your website through Gloria and Gloria Zhang of the inner child podcast. Yeah, she's amazing, gloria is a dear friend. Yeah, and what's interesting is even though once I started listening to your podcast the intersections of inner child healing and money wounds it made so much sense. I don't know if right off the bat I would have recognized that I had money wounds. Wow. And so I'm here and also, having recognized that I did actually have quite a bit of money anxiety or just anxiety around money and finances in general, it's a really nice place to be that I'm kind of learning and just feeling a lot more free around money than I think I have ever felt, and at least in my adult life. Oh, that's beautiful.Speaker 2:
So Grace is also in the very first iteration of CFA, or create fulfilling abundance, which is now my six month program, and it used to be called the money sanctuary. So, grace, you joined the sanctuary in January of this year. Huh, yeah, and Katie. Katie and I have been orbiting each other's world since last year. We met through Kat Lee in business alchemist mentorship. And, yeah, tell us about yourself, katie, and whatever you would like to share.Speaker 1:
Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having me for the conversation, nadine, and, like you mentioned, we've kind of been in each other's circles and worlds for a couple years now. But last year is when I joined the money sanctuary, which was user group program and has really helped me along the way. I actually participated in that for about six months until beginning of this year when I really started. Like at the time I joined I had just gotten a new job and I realized that for so many years I was in fitness and doing health coaching and I was really under earning and I didn't realize until joining your program how much that was really holding me back until I got my new job and I really had this financial abundance that I just never had before. And as you talk about a lot more money kind of doesn't mean your problems are gone. It just means a lot of the problems that were already there are just amplified. And that's definitely what happened to me. When I had more access to possible money. I realized there was more anxiety around that, because for me what I was struggling with is I have all this debt I need to pay off. I also want to save for a trip to Italy, which is a big goal of mine that everyone in the money sanctuary knows about and as well as just things in life and just being able to go out and get coffee and eat with friends and just do life Right. And to me it didn't seem possible to do all three of those things. I had to choose and being a part of that money sanctuary and then eventually joining Nadine's one on one coaching, where I did that for many months, I was able to really create a system that is more holistic to where, even just the other day, I was sitting down and I was like you know, I I don't really look at my, my little sheet where I have all my money.Speaker 2:
I won't even call it a budget because we don't do that, we don't do that, we don't do the be word here.Speaker 1:
I'm very easily organized my finances in a way that when I get paid, I know exactly where the money is going, and all three of those different things are being honored now, which is something I really didn't feel like in the beginning of my money journey could be possible. So I really have this community and you, of course, nadine, to thank, and all of the work you do on inner childhood healing and money wounds.Speaker 2:
Thank you so much, katie, and I'm sure maybe people are new to the podcast, but my money healing journey it started six, seven, eight years ago when I realized that my relationship with money was keeping me small as well, and I came at it from a very different angle, because I was working in accounting so I knew numbers, but I didn't realize how money is way deeper than dollars, way deeper than numbers, because my finances were holding me hostage, they were holding me back from living expansively, living in alignment with a value that I hold very dear to me, which is freedom. And I feel like the three of us here are manifesting generators in human design, and I think that's what we joked about this a while ago in one of our sanctuary community calls of how the system that I teach, the money system that I teach, is perfect for the three of us and anybody out there that has multiple goals, like any other human beings, you know, because we do have the objective of just like living well, living in a house or living in a dwelling that is safe, in a safe neighborhood, that is clean, that is well maintained, whether we own it or we rent it, and also keeping up with the level of nutrition and taking care of our health and taking care of our animals, our children, and you know there's a basic survival things. But then, after that, we start looking at how can we thrive and how can we serve, right? So it is very normal for all of us to have multiple goals. And the thing is, with mainstream financial teachings, or even, like I always talk about, the extreme levels of mainstream finances and mainstream like new age money manifestation teachings, which one swings on one side of the pendulum and the other are the opposite side of the pendulum, and what we need is a nice balance between the two, right? So, grace Katie, talk to us about how implementing what we call the bucket system which you know disclaimer, I didn't invent the bucket system. However, I've been using it for many decades, which makes me very old. For several decades two decades, okay, all right, and I've refined it, and also the way I look at finances is very soul driven and how, through the bucket system, we can not only honor our survival requirements and needs, but also what our soul wants, which is growth and expansion. So, without giving much away, please, yeah, share with us how you feel, or how you felt when, before implementing the bucket system. I feel like Katie kind of started that off a little bit, but like before the bucket system, during the bucket system, because it wasn't easy in the beginning. And how do you feel now about managing your finances?Speaker 1:
Yeah, I can definitely start with that. When I joined the Money Sanctuary, which was a little over a year ago, I was very resistant to the bucket system at first and Nadine knows this I really didn't want to do it. It seemed in my mind like I was making it way too hard because the bank that I had at the time wouldn't really allow me to do the system online in the way that I really wanted to, so that would mean getting a new bank. So I finally, in January of this year, took the leap of faith and opened that new bank account, that new checking account that allowed me to do all the sub-accounts for all the different buckets that just incorporate all the different things in my life. And so for a while I kept open the old checking account where I just paid all my bills from everything related to fixed cost would go in there, and then all of my fund buckets things I was saving for groceries, more kind of things that just fluctuate a little bit more were in my other one, and that was really, really helpful. And then I did that for a couple of months and there was some definitely trial and error of figuring out what I needed, like amountwise, in each bucket. But what was so nice about that is, even if I needed to move things around a little bit, it was all online and so it's very fluent. So, while I have a system in place, it wasn't a rigid system of I'm a bad person because now I need to switch some $10 from this bucket to this bucket. It was more fluent, and a few months after I did that, I decided to just go all in in the one checking account, keep everything in one, and I canceled the other one. And I will say, when I did that there was again some more resistance I had to work through because I knew that it was going to take probably a month's cycle just to make sure that I got everything over into the new one. And a funny thing happened was that one of my bills didn't switch over and it overdrew my old account and I was sitting on the couch in my apartment and I remember looking at it and it was like negative $50. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I never. I used to have that problem way back in my early 20s of like negative bank accounts, bank balances, but not anymore. And I was like, oh my gosh. But then I remembered, okay, I have a system for this, I already have the money. It's just in the wrong account, and so I was able to go to the bank get that money transferred over. Yeah, it was a little inconvenient, but I knew that after that point it could go online and make sure it was like set up properly. So now everything is in one bank account. Every time I get paid, it goes into my one main one and then on my Excel sheet that I have, I have how I divvy it up into all my buckets for each paycheck. So it just makes it really easy and like, when I get paid, I just know exactly what my plan is. I know that this much is going towards savings. I know this much is going towards debt payoff. This is how much I have for groceries and fixed costs. Some of the other buckets I have are like saving for my cousin's wedding that's coming up in February. I have a 30th birthday celebration next month I'm saving for so just little things like that make it really easy to see when I log in that I have everything I need and I'm not spending my birthday money on groceries, like I was always fearful of when I just had it all in one month, yeah.Speaker 2:
Oh my God, I'm the poster girl for financial wellness. I'm so freaking proud of you, Like I mean the progress that Katie has done. It's not just change, it is transformation. You're, you know, your face really changed when it comes to talking about finances. You used to have this closed off, shameful look, and now you're very proud and you're very financially savvy as well. Like I'm not going to say this is all the sanctuary. It is Katie. She actually rocks up to pretty much every single call. She signed up to one on one coaching. She is absolutely committed. She does her own research. She always comes with questions. She, you know, she has this like sense of like. Yeah, I know this is a trial and error. I know it's not a, it's not a perfection, it's a practice and I'm very proud of you for this. And you always bring your little inner child with you along at the different stages of development. We know that when we have, you know, childhood wounds sometimes that can come up and show up in our relationship to money, our relationship to our worth, and you always bring her up and we always make room for her. And how do you feel like she's feeling? You know your little inner child, how does she feel about your finances? And yeah, tell us more about that.Speaker 1:
Yeah, being able to include my inner child in the process of finances has been really healing, because in the past my mindset was so focused on the things I just need to do today, which is like the adulting fixed cost life, and then I really wasn't able to think beyond that, which really limited that inner child who wanted to play and experience the world. And today I feel that the way that I have my finances set up you talk about value based spending and really allowing that like kind of just our soul to be guiding us and the way that my finances are set up today really allows for that space to explore whatever Sheene wants to do. I did a puzzle like subscription for a little while where they send you puzzles and you do them and you send them back. I did that for a little bit and just tried that. I have been saving for trips that I really want to do that have been on my heart for a long time and overall I just feel that she feels more expansive and that has obviously resonated within my present day body as well, just feeling more expansive and creative around money and just life in general.Speaker 2:
And, of course, from my perspective, as somebody who has been guiding you and coaching you, I also would want to reflect that it's a sense of safety that you're feeling within yourself, because we cannot access that creativity, openness and even that sense of curiosity when it comes to trial and erroring a new money system, if we don't feel safe within ourselves, if we don't feel safe in the container as well. And you know, like there is me, but there's also everybody else in the sanctuary, because it's a beautiful, nurturing community. So, just reflecting that back, that yeah, you're just really the poster girl for financial wellness. It's amazing, katie. Thank you, grace. What about you? Tell us more about your journey.Speaker 3:
Sure, I mean, I feel like my bucket system is still a bit of a work in progress, yeah, but I'm also finding that to be kind of fun and, you know, finding areas of where do I want to put my time and my energy and sort of how I can make the bucket system work for me. Because in a lot of ways I think, when we're talking about very rigid budgets, bringing up the B word, it almost feels like my life has to fit this very prescriptive model instead of making something work for me. Yes, so in some ways that bucket system has been really nice because, you know, even though it is sort of a fluid work in progress, it makes me feel like I have autonomy, I have agency to go in and tinker through, like some of those things, as it works for me. And I remember Nadine on the first clarity call that we had. It was wonderful, it was very emotional, yeah.Speaker 2:
I know you and I. We found so many similarities in our lives. It was amazing Like, oh my God.Speaker 3:
Yep, where do we begin, right? So, but one of the things that you had brought up in that clarity call was this idea of like feast or famine, because, in passing, I kind of mentioned, you know, in my first pay period that's when my rent goes out Money tends to feel really tight the first two weeks of the month. The second paycheck, around mid month, is where I feel like I have a lot more flexibility. But I would find myself sort of binge and restricting. Binge and restricting as it came to money, because I felt so restricted during the first pay period I would overspend to kind of compensate for the things that I felt like I was not able to buy During the first two weeks of the month. And I just felt like I was in this constant cycle of building up debt, paying it off, and then finding myself sort of in debt once again. And now that my finances look a lot more steady because you know I'm basically pulling out an even amount of money during each pay period so instead of it sort of looking very uneven from, like you know, week to week, it looks much steadier than it ever has in my entire adult life that in and of itself, I will say, has helped me regulate my nervous system because I don't have the same level of anxiety.Speaker 2:
That's incredible grace, wow. So now, like what Grace has described, is what I would call an inside out approach to money, which is very different to the outside in approach to money. And if that sounds a bit vague, I'll explain. So when we listen to a podcast or we read a book or whatever, we're learning somebody else's formula and we're trying to apply that formula into our lives and that doesn't work on the long run because you are a unique individual that has a unique life purpose, unique values and unique needs and your path needs to look very different than everybody else's path because you're an individual. So when you apply somebody else's formula and try to squeeze into it, that won't last very long. But when you look at yourself, get to know yourself, get clear on who you are, what you want and what you want your finances to do for you, that is what I call an inside out approach to money, where money is actually being managed from your insights, from your soul, from your values, from who you are versus who you think you should be or who you think should be the version of you. That is quote unquote good with money. So that doesn't fly with me, honestly. Now I would love to get your perspective on spending, like when you observe yourself, when you observe others. Now, now that you have another perspective on money, what are your takes on just spending or emotional spending in general, not just necessarily for your personal life, but from what you observe in the outer world?Speaker 1:
My thought was kind of going back to what Grace had said, actually about the binge and restrict. I see that a lot. I think I used to be someone who did a lot of that, where you spend a lot and then, because you do that, you're like, oh man, gotta pull it back, can't spend a lot in the next couple months or the next month, whatever it might be. And I definitely, as far as emotional spending, grew up watching my mom do that a lot, whether it be clothes or food or movies or whatever it might be, just random house decorations. When she was emotional she was usually buying things and I definitely had that pattern for a very long time up until I created the system that really kind of allows for that. I have fun money each month and there's no guilt on when I win or where I spend it. If I want to spend it on something that other people might consider silly, well, whatever, when that money's gone. I just don't have any more fun money whatever. And then I wait until the next time I get paid. So right now, because I have this system in place, it feels a lot more freeing knowing that, even though it might sound silly, it's like, oh well, I just had a little tinge of excitement about that. I want to just experiment and try that out. I know that I have buckets that really support that and allow me to really take the guilt out of the equation.Speaker 2:
That's so good. Oh my God, it's nothing worse. Well, I can list a bunch of other things that are worse, but it is a shitty feeling when you work, work, work or whatever. You have money and you want to spend it, and then you feel like shit after you spend it, like whether it is spent to kind of like alleviate some kind of emotional hunger, or like loneliness. When, after you do it, you're like I still feel empty. You know that feeling of remorse. Or when you really want to spend some, spend it on something that turns you on, but you feel so guilty about spending it that you don't even allow yourself to fully enjoy the yumminess of whatever it is that you decided to spend your resources on. So, yeah, I used to be like that as well, because money was like my oppressor. So every time I would spend money, I'd feel really guilty and I like would have a list of validated ideas of like why I should have done this and that, but I'm like no one cares actually. But yeah, I love what you said, katie, thank you for sharing that. What about your grace? What is your take?Speaker 3:
It's interesting I was having this thought today because I'm headed to Hawaii in a little over a week and so I probably had a bit more of a spendy month than I would otherwise, because there were, you know, some items and things that like bathing suits and things that I wanted to buy and just to prep for the trip. And it's nice because even though in some ways I'm sort of overspending when I'm looking at my individual buckets the fact that I have that flexibility where I can move things around. So, even if I have a month like this where I'm probably spending a bit more money than I would be otherwise, instead of having this ball of anxiety in my chest, I'm like I got this, like, let me look at my buckets, let me move some things around. I mean, I obviously can't spend like this every single month, but it's nice to know that I actually have a system in place and so, you know, I can again sort of adjust accordingly. So not only is there flexibility in terms of how I decide to populate my buckets, but even on a month to month basis, depending on hey, I'm traveling or this is sort of out of the ordinary, I can accommodate. For all of those things. I still feel a little bit of anxiety because I think, when it comes to us, where we're working through the childhood trauma, when we have emotional spending habits and all of those things, I don't know that, that anxiety I think it's still something that we probably need to work through a little bit. But I'm in a much better, much more grounded place than I think I've ever ever been and even with this upcoming trip, where I've spent a decent amount of money on the trip itself but also prepping, I'm actually much more excited about the trip than I am nervous or scared or anxious, which is a great place to be.Speaker 2:
That's beautiful. So, yeah, I mean, what Grace just reflected to us is a very, very astute reflection that financial anxiety is not something that is just going to go away all of a sudden. You don't just snap your fingers and it'll go away. So a lot of people believe that when they make more money, the financial anxiety will go. However, that is unfortunately not true, because if $2,000 a month gives you anxiety, how would you feel when you make five or six or $7,000 a month, even if you're on a smaller amount of money now than you'd like, using that as practice to better manage your finances so that, when abundance comes in, you have a system in place? And the other thing I want to talk about is that, yes, financial anxiety doesn't just disappear, but it does improve, because what it is really is, it's your nervous system being in a threat response when it comes to money, and I've talked about that a lot on the podcast and I do touch upon it inside of the sanctuary and more in my one-on-one containers and in create fulfilling abundance. So we do talk about this a lot. However, for me personally, I used to have financial anxiety like my anxiety would crop up 10 years ago, for example, if I would estimate for a bill say $100 for an electric bill, and the electricity comes for $120, that would put me in an anxious downward spiral of like, why is it $20 more? And with doing the work, I've expanded my tolerance for that uncertainty, because that is what nervous system work is. Is that you just expand your tolerance because life is uncertain, especially people like us who are creative, who are maybe manifesting generators, or who are just like you know, 20s, 30s, 40s, where you just want to fucking live a fuck. Yes, life uncertainty is part of the picture, right? So we can't just be reactive when it comes to money. That's why we've worked with the nervous system. And now you know it became. Later on it became oh, $200 would put me in the same financial anxiety as the 20 used to put me in, and now I'm happy to say that it's $20,000 that would put me in that anxiety. And 200, even 2,000 are like, okay, cool, I mean it's not great, but I can manage this. And this is not to show off, but just to show you all, everybody, that it is possible that if you have financial anxiety now, this is not your life sentence. It is something that you can work through, but it is not through affirmations, it is not through mindset work. It is really through expanding your nervous system and knowing more and more about it. The other thing that we talk about inside the sanctuary are money archetypes, and I'd love to see how understanding your money personality and your money archetypes have helped you, katie and Grace, on your healing journey.Speaker 1:
I love the money archetypes and when I used to have a podcast you came on to talk about them. I know you talk about them all the time on your podcast, but it really helps you to identify this kind of persona that you're taking on and seeing how some of the ones that maybe want to help you but maybe aren't doing it in the most productive way have kind of taken the driver seat over time and we work towards having those more productive ones, like warrior, magician ones, which what's been so exciting through taking that quiz online, which, if you're listening, you haven't taken the quiz. You need to go do that immediately. It's super fun and highly recommend talking to Nadine afterwards because she's a wealth of knowledge. But for me when, of course, when I first took it, it's been interesting to watch every six months I take the quiz again and to see how some of the archetypes that were really active for me in the beginning were my innocent and, I think, my martyr were pretty high when I started and every time I took it they reduced by like 25% and you could see the warrior and magician were like creeping up a little bit at the same time and they're creeping up a little bit and you see those really, really active ones kind of coming down on the chart and it's just a great touch point to show that I've made a lot of progress, even when, sometimes, even in the moment of doing the work, you're like, oh man, I'm not as where I want to be. You had mentioned that at the beginning of the podcast, but I think when we take a look at where we're at today and where we work, we can really realize how much we've gained. That's true.Speaker 2:
Very, very true, and thank you for reflecting that, katie. I do love the money archetypes they have actually really changed my relationship with money but also, like I use them for everything. I use them for every single thing. Whether it's anything that requires some kind of emotional regulation, I bring in the archetypes because I mean, we're all made of parts, right? I love that. I love that you use it. I know I get your quiz results here and now here, and then I'm like, yeah, look at her, because I also watch, I also monitor the progress and I do the same. I also look at my own results and I notice how it's nice to have that tangible touch point, because when we are on a healing journey, there is like the tangible transformations, like how much debt we've paid off, how much savings we have, and also there's the markers of emotional growth, which you can't really measure. But with the archetypes you can kind of get a grasp on that. So that's really cool. What about you, grace, do you? How do you feel about the archetypes?Speaker 3:
No, katie, you've inspired me. I actually have not taken the money archetype quiz since I first taken it, so now I'm actually thinking about it. I'm curious to see what my results today would look like.Speaker 2:
As opposed to six months ago or a few months ago.Speaker 3:
Yeah, and I will say just, it's interesting because again, that correlation of kind of looking at money, healing or talking about money in a very holistic way, where I feel like for me there are lots of intersections between kind of how I showed up in life and sort of how that reflected in my money archetypes sort of staying small, but I think also just kind of deferring to the experts and feeling like I'm just not going to look at my money, I don't want to worry about it, just avoid it. Don't look at your bank accounts, it's you know, I'm not good with money, so I would just rather have somebody else take care of that for me. There are the experts out there and I am not one of them. But what's been kind of fun again going back to the bucket system is that when we are looking at things that kind of light us up right, allowing for more of our magician selves to kind of come through. I didn't know that money could be fun. Look at us, we're having fun yeah. And that I could use money as a resource to kind of feed my soul in some ways, and so I think, kind of allowing for that magician to come through and sorry, what was the other archetype?Speaker 1:
The magician and the warrior.Speaker 3:
There we go. Yeah, the warrior, because as a person who, honestly, I thought that being a people pleaser, I just thought that was a personality trait I have always, like I'm so nice, I'm nice almost to a fault. I didn't realize that fawning was actually a trauma response. Yeah Right, so it's then to actually have this warrior archetype kind of come through and like, basically it's telling me like it's okay and it's safe for me to kind of explore these aspects of my life, to voice them, for things to come to fruition. So, but on that note, I think today at some point I do think I want to go back and retake the quiz. Awesome.Speaker 2:
I look forward to getting the results. You know, earlier, when Katie was talking about her story of she's sitting on the couch in her apartment and she saw that one of her accounts was overdrawn, I just want to kind of like reflect back on that archetypal interaction within Katie. So seeing that her account was minus $50, kind of like took her back to her early 20s where she was probably like more of like the innocent or the victim money archetype of like oh my God, shit, this is happening to me. I don't know what to do, but what happened here is the transformation. The transformation is not that this will never happen. The transformation is that Katie remembered that she has a system. Katie has a warrior archetype that came through and said, hey, you don't have to worry about this, we have a system. And that activation of the warrior archetype is what got Katie to go back into her. You know her true, authentic self of like I'm not scared, I got this. I don't know what to do about this. So, whether it's igniting that warrior archetype to take charge or sometimes just being in that warrior archetype to reach for your phone and ask for help, you know, message your coach, message a friend and just say, hey, I really need to talk about something. Or, you know, just getting out of that helplessness and becoming more empowered. That is a beautiful dynamic of the money archetypes, for example.Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I actually have another great example kind of happened before this and you remember this one because I actually did reach out to you for a little bit of coaching and I think I was maybe, no, I was pretty well into the bucket system. I had done it for like six months. It was like June and I was sitting at a Starbucks by the airport because my mom was coming in town and I had to take a work call. And before the work call I'm looking at my bank accounts on my phone and I realized that today is the day, last day to pay rent and I accidentally spent like $300 that I needed for rent and I hadn't done that in like forever and I was like really beating myself up and my automatic response is freeze, freezer, flight. And so I oftentimes in the past would see that and be like, oh, what was me? Like kind of that victim mindset of this is happening to me, there's nothing I can do, and really shut down around it. And I reached out to Nadine kind of told her what was going on and I realized that I had a choice and I kind of like switched into that, that fight response which I think I really associated as negative before because we think of fighting. But then Nadine really reframed it to me to see how being in that fight response and finding a way and kind of what I associated with more the warrior type, would you agree? Yes, absolutely yeah. So I kind of was able to make that shift and say, okay, I actually do have the money, it's just in a different bucket, so I'm going to borrow it from this bucket and put it in my account, pay my rent. I'm going to get paid again, I'm going to repay myself. And I really had a choice in that moment too, to let that anxiety and that disappointment I had about a financial mistake that just happens regardless of where you're at in your journey, to let that impact the trip. That was going to happen with my mom coming into town, or I could just fix the mistake and move on. And that's what I did. I fixed the mistake and I moved on, and I knew that I would be able to take care of it and I haven't thought about it. Yeah, that's amazing.Speaker 2:
And at that time I had just moved back to New Mexico and I told Katie hey, guess what? I also did the same thing and just her reaching out to me just normalized the whole situation, because we're human beings, we're not robots. We are going to make mistakes, but we're not going to get sucked into the shame right. And also, like, speaking of shame, you also had a lot of shame around it. If you want to talk a little bit to that, katie, yeah, yeah, I see Grace nodding her head as well, so.Speaker 1:
I'm sure she'll be in. But, yeah, lots of shame around guilt, a lot of there's a guilt and shame around debt, and that is because a lot of the debt that I had it wasn't even because, oh, I wanted to go on vacation and do all these things. A lot of it was from continuing education quote coaching, certifications, coaching, things like that. But it added up to quite a bit. And when I started, I think in the money sink the industry area was probably upwards of 50,000 between credit card debt, personal loans and student loans. So all of those combined and it felt really overwhelming. And in the beginning my mindset was I just need to pay all this off immediately. I cannot do anything else until this debt is paid off. And it was kind of a way of like internally punishing myself for mistakes that I had made in the past and I say mistakes very loosely, because all of those things that I invested in have really pushed me forward in ways that I can't even describe. So, while it was an expensive lesson, it really was something that I carried a lot of shame about until I was able to really reframe that a lot with Nadine and see that I needed to kind of take those. I needed those mentors and those coaching certifications to really propel me forward, especially in my mental and emotional health and like really getting into my body. I really didn't start doing that until 2020. I was very logical, I thought in my head a lot and I really didn't know how to express my emotions or even feel into my emotions, because I was so used to turning them off. And having those mentors, especially one-on-one coaches, really helped me do that, and we talked about that inside out approach. That's really what I was doing for the last three years and I really right now feel that like outward momentum is finally coming and with my debt, I actually have been able to set up a plan that's more sustainable. I know it's gonna get paid off, but I also know that in the meantime I'm also going to take some trips and I'm going to. I just started a new business.Speaker 3:
Actually this is branding as of yesterday.Speaker 1:
It's something I've been thinking about for a year and a half, but I had already saved the money for it because I was using the bucket system, so I was already there, I was just waiting to start and I feel like super excited about that and I know that, no matter what, like it's going to get paid off, it's just money that I borrowed and now I'm paying it back a little bit later, yeah, pretty much.Speaker 2:
I do remember at the beginning of our journey together when I was like Katie you're allowed to have a life, even if you're paying off debt. And I feel like, because you have allowed yourself to live, you have put yourself on a more sustainable, non-restrictive payment plan to pay off your debt and you're well into paying it off. You're like at the cusp of like having no personal loans or no credit card.Speaker 1:
Yeah, my credit card will be paid off by the end of the year and that was $14,000. And I had to get off an additional credit card. But that I did last year. That's amazing.Speaker 2:
That's incredible and you're allowing yourself to live and a lot of people have so much shame around that and they don't let themselves live and they end up putting all their money like just throwing money on their credit card debt and they don't understand that they're pretty much like still, the money they're throwing on their credit card debt is the money that they're supposed to be using to live their day-to-day lives, right, and then they end up back in credit card debt because they're overpaying their credit card debt, because it's just this unintentional cycle of like shame. That's pretty much it, right, yeah?Speaker 1:
And you can't pay off the debt with the same energy. You got into Exactly. You've talked about that before and that's what I was doing. I was doing this kind of like hold my breath scenario, pay off all the debt, and then I breathe, come up for air, and that's that whole binge restrict cycle. You see it in money, you see it in food, you see it in over-consuming social media and TV, like that's just. You know how it is. And so I had to realize okay, this is probably gonna take me a little bit longer than I'd like to pay this off. I wanna have it paid off yesterday.Speaker 2:
But that's not gonna happen. So what's a way that I can do this in a sustainable way that still pushes me forward but then allows me to still live?Speaker 2:
Yeah, and something that, something you also said was you learned a lot and every relationship that we have in life that is a little bit challenging. It will push you or, like, once you lean into it, it will teach you more about yourself. And I've had a few clients say this to me actually, towards the end of their healing journey with me with money. Which really surprised me was that you know, I really resented my debt but now I'm really grateful for it because without my debt I wouldn't have gone this deep into healing emotional and resolved emotional wounding from childhood. So our emotional trauma or wounding it will show up in many different areas of our lives and sometimes it will show up in money and it is about leaning in and learning the lessons and Grace is nodding her head a lot. I would love to see what you have to say about this.Speaker 3:
I feel a little attacked, first and foremost because I was that person who was basically throwing $600, $700 onto my credit card payments and convincing myself that I could live off of $120 a month, yeah, and then obviously recognizing that that was not sustainable and then continuing the debt cycle. And so it brings me a little bit of peace to know that I am not the only person who's done that. But just in general, I think I've lived my life in that binge restrict cycle, whether it comes to credit card debt or just kind of finances and money in general. I don't know that I've carried as much personal debt, but I do have a lot of student loan debt. That's just kind of hanging over me, where I kind of look, I open up my account and I'm basically like, wow, I could pay off a mortgage with the amount of money that I owe. That's in the six figures at this point. And I do have a plan in place, I do have a bucket specifically for my student loans. So I'm hoping, as time goes on, that I'll continue to make some progress there, and then also just kind of being grateful for the ability or for having the option to take out those student loans, because going to grad school. Having that education in a lot of ways was life changing. It was really valuable. Of course, yeah, and sometimes that change in perspective I mean it doesn't make having that much debt easier to swallow but I think the change in perspective allows me to come at things with a slightly different energy Of course.Speaker 2:
Yeah, like what Katie was saying, we cannot pay it off from the same energy that created it. I love that. You kind of said you felt attacked but also normalized, so I really wanna talk to the importance of doing this stuff in community. What is your take of not just like learning about money in a holistic way, but like just being in a community where we're all like-minded and going towards the same goal?Speaker 1:
Yeah, I'll comment on that to say two things. One, it's really valuable to just say things out loud for yourself, because we often just live in our heads and that anxiety can get just grow. But when we say it out loud, oftentimes you're met with echoes of me too. And that's the second part is that you get to normalize and say, hey, all these people are here with very similar intentions and goals in mind and I don't have to do this alone. I have a system in place and when those anxiety feelings come up, when I am feeling a little dysregulated, I have tools now in this community to really help talk me off the ledge, so to speak, and to come back down and realize, okay, like we're on the right path and all is good. And it is really just comforting to share that with other people, because I don't think you should do anything on your own. We're meant to be in community and that's definitely what we have with the money sanctuary culture. Well said well said.Speaker 2:
Thank you, Katie. What about you, Grace?Speaker 3:
I love healing in community. I think it just it brings like another level of I don't know. I mean because obviously there's, you know, you can read, you can do things on your own, but I think being around a group of like-minded folks just brings an added layer of solidarity or I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on what it is about being in a group setting that just amplifies what it is that you're currently doing, but it's wonderful. I mean, obviously I found that when doing Glorious Program and I can say very similar things about the Money Sanctuary as well, you know, and it reminds me of Brene Brown and talking about and talking about shame, right, the more we talk about things and bring them to light, I feel like the less guilt and shame there is around, whatever topic you're talking about. And I think also just being around people who are on the journey or a very similar journey to what you're doing, there's something about that that is very, that's valuable.Speaker 2:
Yeah, to be witness, to be, you know, like the yeah, me too, I did that too or seeing people on different parts of their journey. People maybe they're ahead of you in some aspects of their financial healing journey, people that are maybe a little bit behind in different aspects. But just being in a safe co-regulation community is so important for everybody and I love working with clients one-on-one, but I do really, really, really, really really love being able to facilitate a community and facilitate healing, especially with its subject, that is, money, which is so taboo. So many of my community members feel awkward talking about money, even to their partners. But to be able to raise their hands and speak about what is playing them when it comes to money, what their wins are, what is going on and what they've witnessed, and all of that just being in that community is such a massive transformation in itself. So, yeah, what would you tell anyone that is on the fence of starting? Like? I guess the question really is like, what was your biggest hesitation with starting your healing journey with money and what would you tell past version of you from where you're at today?Speaker 1:
Biggest like I guess roadblock, that kind of got you from starting. Yeah, biggest roadblock, biggest fear, yeah, oh man, I guess for me, even like sharing that in a group, like in the beginning, felt very uncomfortable because there was a lot of shame associated with where I was at, and so that definitely had part of it, but I think that the main thing playing in my mind was I should be able to figure this out on my own. Yes, that one, and that is the one that has plagued me my entire life. It's what kept me until I was let's see, I must have been 23 when I started counseling for the first time, and I was, like you know, fighting my way away from that and, you know, until I finally just like, let go.Speaker 2:
I was like, oh wait, I actually need to be here. This is great. So I think that's the main thought pattern that kept me from any kind of investment in healing community. One-on-one coaching is that I should be able to figure this out. And I just have to tell my younger self that, man, it's so much easier when you can do it with other people and, yeah, you're super smart and capable, but you're going to accelerate so much faster when you can just be held by other people.Speaker 2:
That's so true, Because you deserve to be held. Aw, that's beautiful, Katie. And I do feel also like when people look at doing anything with their finances, they have this fear that to be good at money it means no longer living your life, it means just being on a budget and no longer doing anything pleasurable, because mainstream financial whatever advice programs is really based on restriction. Did you have that fear?Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think in the beginning, I think, joining everything that you do, I already knew so much about what you did, Nadine, so I knew that wasn't going to be the case. But if I were just going, based off previous gurus that I've heard in the space, then I probably would have that mindset of oh well, if I don't pay off all of my debt, I shouldn't be doing anything that brings me joy. And that's just absolutely silly. Do you have to probably reprioritize some things? Yeah, but when you actually take a look at it, you might realize that a lot of the things you spend money on are things that maybe you don't even value or you're doing because you think you need to to please someone else. So that high martyr archetype might be really active for you. And when you start to really see those patterns for yourself, you can start to write a new story for how you want it to be, and you might realize that you don't really. You might just need to shift some things around with the money that you have, but you're actually going to get more of the things that you want and less of the things you don't want.Speaker 2:
Yeah that's so true. Yeah, that's very well said. That's very true. Yeah, for me, I think the hardest part when I started was I thought I was going to be more of a hard ass on myself. When it came to money. I was already a hard ass. Regardless of how much money I made, I was always just like nickel and diming, restricting myself, denying myself of anything, and I thought, oh, once I go on a deeper journey with money, how much more can I like, restrict, right? But the result was the absolute opposite of that, because everything we do is really based on who you are and everything I do is trauma informed. So there is nothing that is going to make you override who you truly are and override what you've been through. What about you, grace? I know it's a long question, but what are your reflections?Speaker 3:
I think very similar to Katie. I had this idea of meaning to ask for help, maybe seen as a weakness or somehow this deep shame around being bad at money, I think were the two things that kind of came up for me. But having found you and your podcast and the money sanctuary right around the time that I was already doing a deep dive into all of that inner child healing, it aligned and it made so much sense for me. I don't know if I would have done anything with you or worked with you had it been more like traditional sort of finance and budgeting advice. I think that would have been terrible for me and my nervous system and potentially damaging to some of the healing I had already done at that point.Speaker 2:
Yeah, 100% right. Like there's so much out there that makes me feel like, oh my God. No, that is retraumatizing. I think I spoke about this on my podcast before, but if me seven years ago were to come to me now, I would get me off of my budget. At the time I had a very strict budget and I have a lot of clients that come to me very proud of their spreadsheets or their apps or their budgets and, according to not everyone, but according to their past and according to their childhood wounding, I sometimes make them get off of it ASAP, because sometimes the wrong money plan or the wrong budget can retraumatize you. You're absolutely right, grace. That is such a good perspective and a good point to bring up for everybody out there that's listening. And to wrap up, please, what would you tell people out there that are just starting to embark on their own healing journey or trying to play with the idea that, oh, this money thing might actually not be that bad?Speaker 1:
Grace, do you want to share first? I will yeah.Speaker 3:
Again, first and foremost, I think for me, is that it's about the money, but it's about so much more than just the money, and I think having a mentor or a person like Nadine being able to kind of walk me through this process has been really wonderful. And because it's such a holistic approach, because again it's not just looking at it from this very black and white money in, money out type of approach, I think that for anybody who's sort of on the fence about like hey, is this for me? Do I take that plunge I think it's worth at least investing in yourself and seeing where that takes you, because the healing is there. And I think for so many of us, whether we recognize that we have trauma or not I feel like so many of us are walking around with money wounds, and so having a space to be able to unpack those things, while also not only unpacking those things but also improving your quality of life on a day to day basis, I think is something that all of us should do and it's worth investing in.Speaker 2:
Thank you Grace. Yeah, you're so right. I mean, the relationship we have with money impacts our stress levels, our sleep, the way that we take care of ourselves, the way that we take care of others. I mean it has, it is linked and connected to everything, right? So, yeah, thank you Grace.Speaker 1:
Katie. Yeah, grace, you said it so well, so well. There were so many parts that I was just nodding my head to because I agree, and I guess my only thing that I would say is that not only your inner child will thank you, but your future self will thank you for doing that work now, because it's really going to just free up so much brain space for you to be able to worry about other things, and there's truly so many other wonderful things your mind could be working on, like a project or a trip or connecting with people you care about, rather than spending it being anxious about when your next paycheck's coming, how you're going to pay off your debt. Just put a plan in place by following, you know, getting in a good community and having little systems in place so you don't have to worry, and then you can get back to your life Beautiful.Speaker 2:
Well, thank you so much, Katie and Grace, for joining us today on this week's episode of the Money Healing Podcast. Thank you, everybody, for listening, for tuning in, for doing what you can to help yourself and help your inner child to feel safe with money, because money is, you know, it can be scary when you look at it from a perspective of what you should be doing and know that money can be your friend, that money can facilitate the dream life that you are so, so, so worthy of. So, with that, I love you and leave you all Leave links in the show notes if you would like to join us in any of the programs that I'm offering and I'll see you all next week. Bye, bye, bye.